BULLYING & DISCRIMINATION - BY MASTERS, BOYS - PSYCHOS & FIGHTS
(See also under ‘Views on RLSOB’ for discussion of whether or not to censor certain materials)
DISCRIMINATION (RACIAL, COLOUR, RELIGION etc.)
Biffo wrote: This brings to mind something that has puzzled me for a long time. Even at the age of 11 I was aware of racism, if only because it was so rife back then. But I had never even heard of anti-semitism until I started at RLS and was forcibly introduced to it by the rest of my "year."
Why was it so prevalent there ?? Biffo, my experience was completely different. Although aware of racism via TV as far as I was concerned it was something that happened elsewhere. I had never personally witnessed it as my junior school and where I lived on the Hill was completely white. I'm sure there were lots of racists around it was just that there were no victims available. As for the anti-semitism at the RLS, I completely missed this. Although brought up CofE I was very aware of my own Jewishness and am sure that I would have noticed. Any instances that you can relate that may jog my failing memory? Harry Roger Harlow (63-70)
Reading through the archive threads the pattern of sadism had changed by the time the 66ers arrived (I don't recall hair or side burn pulling by masters), but the chief culprits were often the same. The main weapon of these miscreants was the face slap. On one occasion one boy with glasses was slapped so hard around the face that his glasses travelled half way across the classroom to disintegrate against the wall. On another occasion a boy was so startled when he was slapped (I guess he hadn't seen the master approaching) that he ran from the room not entirely knowing what had hit him. (Pete Isaac)
Sadists: Foxy came into this category on 2 counts.1 The hair lift was operating in my first year, as a consequence of which I am now bald only at the sides:-) Can I sue? 2 His "jokes/repartee was funny 1st time round but paled by the 5th year. (Phil Kingham)
My recollection was that Foxy instigated his "Hair Drill" in competition to Coles' obsession to wipe out the long hair (and sideburns!!!) that was devouring the country and threatening to rape the entire world! One lasting memory that I have was of the unbeatable swimmer( Joe Levy- who I see from FriendsReunited has recently joined ) winning everything he entered in the annual inter-house swimming gala and being captain of his house having to receive the overall cup plus his awards from the guest presenter. Unfortunately "the guest presenter" was Mrs Coles (the Wife). According to Coles the following day at assembly he was hugely disappointed that his wife had to endure being confronted with Joe Levy with such long unkempt hair (and sideburns). The Wife subsequently left Coles! -Joe you may well elaborate on this perhaps legendary tale! Foxy was a cynical and sarcastic master and appeared to sympathise with us boys. I felt his hair drill kept him in everybody's good books. (Clive Puttock)
I don't think so Clive ... he was torturing first-formers with it in 1959 (and probably much earlier) (Andy)
As Alan alluded to, Fox was doing the "pulling hair above the ears" bit as early as 1951. It hurt, and his fingers (and indeed his whole person) smelled of stale tobacco. He also had some magnificent yellow teeth which appeared to be the result of 30 years of so of smoking Woodbines. At least Fox made his lessons fairly interesting (for me anyway) I never did learn a word of French but it was a time-passer to listen to some of the less gifted of us trying to sing "Au claire de la luna" or words to that effect. As a dramatics producer he was formidable and his plays (in my opinion) were better than other producers such as Jake Melnick. (Mike Merry)
Franklyn: As discussed at length previously, Fox was the
sadist pulling us up by the temporal growth.
Advance (Retire) to 1952 for the Foxy Torture! (David Gregory) Foxy torturing 1st formers in 1959 or probably earlier you say? - certainly four years earlier! Neither could the Foxy of my recollection have been remotely described as being in the boys' good books - quite the contrary, he was probably the most loathed master in my time at RLS! Or are there any other contenders for this unenviable title? (Bob Tucker)
Sadists: Ernie Pilling once met his match when Ernie Matthews told him his clout round the head had minimal effect and if he did it again... Ernie was bigger than him. This show of foolish bravado earned Ernie M the Whack, courtesy of Scruff. (Phil Kingham)
Sadists: Alan Guy was a different pot of noodles. You could push him so far (and his sense of humour was at our level), exceed and he would throw a board rubber with unerring accuracy at your innocent head. Anticipation of this event would mean a lightning reaction to raise the hinged desk top, said rubber ricocheting onto the oik next door. Honour was then satisfied all round. He could also hit VERY hard, he had huge hands. (Phil Kingham)
HEY, CATON, BOY! TAKE YEW'RE HAANDS OUT OF YEW'RE POCKETS. YEW'LL GET CHILBLAINS!! (Courtesy Jock Pryde, who surely is a contender for the "most hated" title). (David Gregory)
Bullying: Sorry about the repetition! How about Ernie Pilling's cuffs to the back of the head and kicks up the backside (quite difficult for a man of his short stature). I recall this being done to the accompaniment of a commentary from Ernie - something like: "C'mon Tucker (or whoever), you're waiting for Father Christmas are you? - well he's a dangerous guy!" (Bob Tucker)
(Bob Tucker spoke of loathing Foxy) I don't know so much
about "loathed" I think the word "feared" could be applied
to several gowned gorillas. Gaffer Kittle, (History, and on
his way to retirement in the early '50's) a big man with a big clout. He
could really hurt you!
You should speak to Bob Davies (ex-member of this group) about Roy Armes. Apparently Bob found himself sitting on the same airport bus as Armes a couple of years back and decided to let loose and tell him what an absolute b*s*a*d he had been. The only problem was that Armes did not have a clue who Bob was. How he could be bothered after all these years I don't know. (Roger Harlow)
Perhaps fortunately for me, Foxy retired at the end of my
first year at RLS so I never really had the opportunity to acquire the intense
dislike which he seems to have engendered in previous generations. So, of the numerous
candidates in the 1960s I would like to select three as being especially worthy
of mention:-
1) Roy Armes
could be humorous, but had a vile temper when pushed and appeared to have
learnt and refined Foxy's hair trick. It could be tricky to work out exactly where
you stood with him.
2) Despite having read Bill's eloquent defence of the man, I still believe Roy
Franklin was dangerously violent and should not have been given charge over
young boys. Did anyone ever wonder exactly why the windows of the Art room were
all painted out and why he invariably taught with the door closed? Could it possibly have been to prevent anyone
seeing what was going on inside?
3) However, despite the efforts of the above, the clear winner in my time has
to be Derek Reynolds. For all of
My abiding memory of my first year (58/59 - aside from following West Ham's arrival in the First Division with a young Robert Moore, and lamenting the passing of Buddy Holly) was of the violence of Messrs Fox, which has already been well chronicled, and Pilling. The latter invariably kicked us up the backside on the premise that it ensured that our brains were in our head rather than any other part of the anatomy. Chalk and board rubbers were also part of his armoury as I recall. George Newth was equally appalling - I recall one of our number being sent out of an English lesson by Mr Madell, I believe. George came along and smacked the culprit across the face with both the inside and outside of his hand - even Madell, to his credit, appeared to be shocked by this. How times have changed - most of these characters would have acquired criminal records if present day standards had been applied. Having left school in 65 I was somewhat shocked to find George Newth chairing a Civil Service selection board interview I attended in the autumn of that year - fortunately he did not reveal his violent tendencies on that occasion. (Malcolm Paul)
In the fifties I saw GHRN slap a small boy across the face in much the same way. Despite being grateful to him for his help in later years, I never regained the respect for him that I had for other masters at the school. Slapping kids across the face didn't go well with his usual frosty dignity. (thos?)
...and Malcolm is not the first to write of George doing something like this. There is an interesting comparison here - although Jake Coles was fierce, strict and prone to temper tantrums, I have never heard of him striking a boy with anything other than a cane. I know distance sometimes lends enchantment, but I find it virtually impossible to conceive of him dropping his professionalism so far as to do such a thing. Unless, of course, any Hon. Member knows differently... (John Bailey)
Regarding Roy Franklin, I could be tempted to say that there
was nothing sinister about the art room windows being painted out, other than that painting windows was the limit of the man's artistic
ability. That would only be because I
loathed him as much as he (probably) loathed me. Having got the cheap jibe out of the way, I
will now admit that I was, and still am, absolutely hopeless at the
subject. The problem was, that I didn't
care that I was hopeless, and probably showed it. I didn't get on with Pete Benson, although
many of you here did. Once again,
hopeless at PE, and couldn't care less.
To some, it must be an insult to a person who has spent their life
studying and then teaching their pet subject.
I would be interested to hear from those of you who were good at art -
perhaps good enough to have work displayed even - and to hear if you got on
with
I heartily concur with your comments about
As for DFR, well once again, I went to his lessons, tried to look attentive, and have no evidence of any funny business in any other areas. However, you are not alone in your loathing. Check out the Friends-Reunited message board for the RLS - there's plenty of Derek-bashing there. It seems as though it got worse after we left the school. (Vince Leatt)
BOY BULLIES
As for HM Smith, the incident I recall occurred on a snowy day when I was in 4th form. I was set upon near High Trees and received several pounds of snow down the back of my shirt collar. My offences were a) having my hair cropped and b) being suspected of being a close confidant of HM Malcolm Cooper and non-HMs Neil Richardson and Trev Boone. (John Bailey)
Do any of you recall the famous Belsham/Oliver fist fight
in the playground by the huge tree near the swimming pool ? It was a fine
brawl, much enjoyed by the chanting throng, especially those of us who liked
neither participant, so could enjoy every crashing blow or kick. It was, sadly,
interrupted by a master eventually.
Of course, I realise Mr Harlow was a paid-up member of the "Kev fan club"
so would have had other views on the matter.
P.S. I think Chris Putt was holding Kev's jacket and valeting it while the
fight ensued, whilst writing "I love Kev" on the back of his alumni.
(Steve Byrne)
I was fascinated to see references to one Martin Binks in the thread on bullying. Other people talk about him as sidekick to one Brian Hallett who I don't remember at all. I do, however, remember a Binks terrorising me and other first-formers in league with one Copsey I don't think I ever knew his first name. Their speciality, modelled, I suppose on "The Pit and the Pendulum", was to lay their victim face up on the master's desk and then swing the blackboard T-square back and forth over his face or other tender parts of his anatomy until the inevitable impact occurred. They had a lieutenant who I only remember by their nickname for him: Donkey. In my innocence I thought his name had been chosen as a reference to the shape of his ears. (Patrick Micel)
Forgive me, but I don't think you are referring to the Martin Binks who was an associate of Brian Hallett. Martin started at the RLS in 1965 at the same time as me. Previously he attended Hilldene School in Harold Hill, where he was a football player of some repute. Martin left RLS in 1969 to try his luck as an apprentice professional and I believe he currently works for NatWest stockbrokers in London. Even though I fear you have got the wrong Mr Binks, I can assure you that Martin was quite a hard lad! As for Mr Hallett, his particular forte was to "nut" unsuspecting victims on the bridge of their nose, inflicting considerable pain and damage. I am told that Brian is now an accountant, so arguably in the same line of business. (Malcolm Brown)
Many thanks for the correction. As I was at RLS from 1961-63 this is clearly not the same Binks. Did he/does he have older brothers? (Patrick Micel)
Allow me to throw a little light on this, if I may. The Binks who Patrick was thinking of was undoubtedly Steve Binks, Martin's elder brother and a renowned 'ardnut in his own right. I also remember the aforementioned Copsey, who was generally reckoned (with some justification) not to be playing with a full deck. It is he who appears twice in one of the school photographs, the 1964 edition if I recall correctly. As Malcolm said, Martin Binks was indeed working at Natwest Stockbrokers where he was in fact Managing Director. However the last time I spoke to him he was engaged in reorganising his own job out of existence, prior to taking a package and becoming a gentleman of leisure. Whether he has completed this task, I honestly don't know! (John Bailey)
It may have only happened during my time; no-one else has
mentioned it; but, during I believe the 4th year, there was a ritual whereby
an unsuspecting victim would suddenly be seized by a group of classmates,
spread face upwards across a desk, and held down whilst one of the group undid
his flies and pulled out his 'boyhood' to the cheers/jeers of any onlookers.
In retrospect, this was merely an innocent manifestation of pubescent curiosity,
but I've wondered as to the sexual orientation of the ones who did the 'hands-on'
bit. I've always kept in mind the name of the culprit when I was the victim
so that should I ever meet up with him, I could satisfy my curiosity....not
I hasten to add, literally, having no inclination, and failing capability.
(Eric Barker 1952-54)
Thank God the old 6A hut had gone by my time. The sixth form hardly ever bothered us oiks as too young to bother with. The main bullying problem was with your own year. This could be alleviated by being the cigarette seller, which ingratiated you with the toughs (and of course you had 'something' on them. Another successful anti bulling tactic was to be a county class sprinter. Lastly, fighting back with spirit normally got one respect as I found out on one occasion. The unnamed tough threw a brick at me, which missed. I threw it back and hit him...no further repercussions. I have to say that rls was not a violent school in my day, and to my knowledge only one serious incident occurred which went to the courts. (Richard Marsh)
At the '51 reunion I had the pleasure of talking to George Delmonte after 46 years. I bought up the subjects of bullies and Ted's. George said "You know, in all my time at RLS I can't remember being bullied by anyone at all. I didn't see anyone being bullied and I don't recall being a bully to anyone" He went on to say "There were incidents that some people would call bullying, such as boys taking the p*ss out of young Heath (who was at the reunion). But after all, Heath shouldn't really have been at RLS at all with his unfortunate problem. Boys have absolutely no mercy, when weakness, such as Heath's timidity, is shown. I mentioned Ted's to George and his comments were. "Our year had Ted's, yes, however we didn't go to school dressed like that. The '49 and '50 input had some who did turn up in drainpipes, draped jackets and suede brothel creepers but very few. George just wouldn't have that kind of thing and I think we all knew it" So David, right from the mouth of one of the biggest Ted's, came these comments. Sorry! (Mike Merry)
Picking up the thread of bullying I was never aware of
incidents of real violence or even specific threats but there did exist in some
areas of the school an atmosphere of intimidation. I think it was mostly to do
with 'big' boys flexing their muscles but I believe I escaped from most of it
as I had an elder brother at the school.
I remember a couple of times when I was potentially in a tight spot when
somebody from 3G or 4G would pass by, look at me and say " Aren't you Andy
Lee's brother? " Upon confirmation of my sibling status and a clip round
the ear for my oppressor we all got on with our day. Bruvers,
Gawd Bless 'Em (GAL)
The recent postings concerning sadistic
masters and various school hardnuts and bullies
brings back another memory of the same kind. When I was in either 5th or
6th form there was a little skinhead nutter by the
name of Warren in one of the lower forms who would take on pretty well anyone,
older boys included. He was the first
(and I think only) boy I ever saw wearing cherry-red Doctor Marten's with his
school uniform. I dimly recall Hon
Member Steve East indulging in a "free and frank exchange of views"
with this lad on one occasion - I can't remember why, it may have been for the
crime of Refusing to Give Way to a Black Blazer or some such. Anyway there weren't too many bruises
thankfully
John :I think he was in the year below me which would make him the 67 intake. (Richard Hall)
Bullying: None in '63 although we did get a good shouting at (primarily by 2S, who else) whilst lining up in the playground to be sent off to our respective classes (1A, 1B & 1C). (Chris Broadbridge)
Psychos R Us: Richard/John The reference is to Steve Warren who was in my class. My experience is that he was no respecter of authority and was thus destined not to last the course - but he was not overtly aggressive, especially with his peers. There were many tales of derring-do, but they were mostly based outside the confines of the RLS. The most (in)famous thing he did in school was when ordered by our French Teacher/Form Master called Trevor Burvill to write out why he did not complete his homework. I seem to recall that it ran something like "Because Burvill is a shitty little prick and I hate his guts." Don't think that was well received but we never heard the ending. That would have been some time in the third year. He was an early adopter of skinhead fashion (with Bill Lovett). Each had a sheepskin coat (bought together one snowy lunchtime from Rumford Shopping Hall) that were the envy of most of us skinhead wannabes, not least because in 1968 a single item of clothing and £30+ took a bit of reconciliation. He certainly had that utter fearlessness and disregard for his own safety that allowed him stand up to anyone regardless of age or size. He did nail my head to a coffee table once but I must have transgressed the unwritten rule. (Andy Ellis)
Talking of psychos (being an expert on the subject having been married to one for a long time) does anyone remember someone from the 65 intake - I think his name was Brian Hallett. (Richard Hall)
Brian Hallett was in the 1965 intake. Decent footballer and sprinter who I believe left before taking his 'O' levels. Never knew he was a psycho. (Roger Harlow)
To balance the equation, he did appear on the front page of the local paper having saved a young child’s life by giving artificial respiration. After this however, having witnessed a fight one lunchtime between him and one of his peers, he seemed more intent on taking life rather than saving it. (Richard Hall)
Brian Hallett was in the year above me and he had an equally mean partner Martin Binks. Brian certainly had a reputation that made the blood run cold in our first couple of years. He wasn't very big but if you were bigger he seemed to take a lot of offence. I remember the day that Jake came into assembly and said that he was very proud that one of the school had saved a child’s life and the deafening stunned silence when he said who it was. A couple of years ago I was at a dinner party and a good friend of mine mentioned a neighbour Brian Hallett, it made be choke on my prawn cocktail. So I know here he lives and if I keep getting unfairly accused in this group I am going to get him to join my gang. (Greg Cooper)
Brian Hallett was the year below me, and I remember him as being quite small, but he was extremely violent. I heard that he was up on a GBH charge a few years after leaving. As he lived in Goodmayes (his parents ran the Lord Napier pub) and I travelled in on the same train (from Chadwell Heath) I knew him well, so I never suffered any attacks from him, but he was a keen fighter. (R. Tolby)
As I recall Hon. Member Steve East's punch-up was with Martin Binks leaving Steve considerably the worse for wear. (Roger Harlow) Steve Warren - was the years 'skinhead' for some reason I seem to remember him taking great pleasure out of kick the 's**t' out of Bill Lovett all the time (kiddicat). He also got expelled in the 4th year I think. (Rob Stranders)
I distinctly remember one of my brother's friends who might have been loosely described as a 'Hells Angel' (he used to replace his blazer with a waist coat) bashing the granny out of a fourth former who had thumped me in my first week at school. And idea who it was? (Trevor Landen)
Re: The Brian Hallett & Martin Binks stories… Well they were definitely '65 intake (as me).
Isn't it easy to remember the bad things? Brian had a tough
background and a very tough family. We shared the same kind of family - always
getting a severe good hiding for the most trivial things and occasionally a
full fist punch in the muggins by a not-too-sober
dad. I was like Brian before I came to the RLS, but luckily changed. Some
survive, some become violent themselves. I survived. Brian did indeed get
charged with GBH. I won't say the details. That's his private thing. He was a
Bovver Boy, but still only a boy. You would think that the Lib could have
pulled in some resources to help him instead of just punishing him, wouldn't
you? He had a nice side too, and would readily lend money to his friends. Does
anyone remember his non-stop jokes? Hell, he was funny. Martin was a well-built
lad for his age and was very tough. He was a great team leader playing sports -
then he wasn't violent - and I'll always remember him appealing to all of us
not to break ranks over a repeat mass detention even though "twas not he". I guess it was
I certainly remember Brian Hallett. There wasn't much of him but he was a real hard b&@$£&d. My first recollection of him was him nickin' our tennis ball and suggesting we were all "Herbie's bum boys". I didn't know who Herbie was at that very formative stage but didn't think it appropriate to show my ignorance. Legend had it that Brian once followed a "geezer" who had "screwed him" on the top deck of a bus and buried a hatchet between his shoulder blades. "Screwed" in those days more popularly referred to being stared at, of course. Can anyone throw any light on this allegation/tribute to Brian? (Chris Stratford)
Yes, I remember the "screwing" and the bus incident, but the version I remember is that he slashed the guy's face with a razor blade. He and Martin Binks were in the year below me, but I do remember they had a "reign of terror" thing going - they were to be avoided at all costs, and certainly never argued with. There was one kid, whose name I can't remember (also not sure if he was in my year, or Hallett's/Bink's year), but he was fairly petite with very blond hair, and I remember him getting into a fist fight with Martin Binks. It happened in the school corridor somewhere near the biology lab, and possibly as we were waiting in the lunch line. Anyway, he surprised everyone, due to both his stature, and quiet demeanour as, although he didn't win, he certainly stood up to Binks very well, and gave him a run for his money. Unfortunately it was not possible to show open support for fear of one's self getting beaten up. Hallet and Binks are certainly one of my least favourite memories of the Lib. (Les Farrow)
I had nothing to do with Brian Hallett at school, being 2 years below me, and only really knew of his sporting prowess. However I came across him last year when my son joined a new football team that was managed by Brian and I have to say that he seems one of the calmest people that I have ever met. My son has played for several teams and quite a few managers over the past 12 years and arguments (verbal & otherwise) with referees, opposing managers and parents and players from both sides are par for the course amongst managers in schoolboy football. Brian never got involved in any of this, always encouraged his own players and congratulated the other side, win or lose. I don't doubt the recollections posted by various members but he certainly appears to be a very different character these days. (Roger Harlow)
(See also under ‘Views on RLSOB’ for discussion of whether or not to censor certain materials)
I think the petit blond mentioned was Frank Etherington, from my year, who was indeed a very mild-mannered lad - and a good mate of mine - but who could certainly stand his corner when provoked. A good Dagenham lad, was Frank, and I'd be delighted if anyone knew of his whereabouts and could persuade him to join the group. (Chris Stratford)
Yes I vote with the Hon Chris Stratford, Frank Etherington is a very likely candidate, well developed
sense of humour, which is probably why he found himself in a spot, seem to remember
having great fun with him in Vic Slade's improvised drama lessons. In our (66)
intake we were completely sandwiched between these two more violent years 67
Steve Warren et al and 65 Binks et al. It didn't help
that 65 and 67 seemed to have a skinhead leaning whereas we were more laid back
in our Loon Pants. As Frank showed we didn't suffer too badly at school but at
weekends around
Various Hon Members have opined that Frank Etherington was the pugilist concerned, which remains a possibility. However, if you have been reading the posts on this subject over the last few days (Les??) you will recall Roger Harlow saying that Hon Member Steve East (from my year) was also involved in a punch-up with Martin Binks. In those days, Steve could also have been described as "petite, with very blond hair" and the fight was certainly in the vicinity of that particular corridor, although I initially remembered a different protagonist. The Hon Member himself may be able to enlighten us if he can be asked to read his daily digest, for a change. Alternatively, I am booked to have a couple of beers with Martin Binks next Wednesday (7th Nov) lunch time, I will ask him for his recollection of said event... (John Bailey)
There was a craze for sharpening metal combs in woodwork on the lathe when Wiggins wasn't looking (i.e. most of the time as he had his head buried in his latest private commission). I am embarrassed to admit that I did it too but I would not have used it in a million years. Quite relieved when my dad confiscated it as the only damage it did was to my inside blazer pocket. Entire 67 crew - let me guess, Steve Warren, Bill Lovett, Ade Barber, Chris Mount, Barry O'Connor, Brian Williams, John Harrison plus assorted hangers on? All perfectly fine when not a) too testosterone-charged b) fuelled by the contents of a Party 7 or c) out together Sadly Chris Mount killed himself in his late 20's - jobless and depressed. It was in the local paper. (Andy Ellis)
In our (66) intake we were completely sandwiched between
these two more violent years 67, Steve Warren et al and 65 Binks
et al. It didn't help that 65 and 67 seemed to have a skinhead leaning whereas
we were more laid back in our Loon Pants. As Frank showed we didn't suffer too
badly at school but at weekends around
As a member of the 67 intake I have to take exception to the comment that we were a violent lot. I mean, sharpened metal combs were strictly used for combing shaven heads, honestly. (Cliff Jones)
I vaguely recall Heath but am intrigued by what you call "his unfortunate problem"; how would you define this (or is it too confidential for this medium)? (Bob Tucker) Well Don was a very shy lad. It was said he was trapped in a bombed building as a very young boy for some time and this upset him somewhat. He came to RLS and was very much an outsider. He was not unintelligent but was very fussy and prim. Not good at sports and hardly a mixer. If annoyed he would swing his satchel and give the baiters a heavy whack with it, this was his only form of defence. I don't think he had a happy time at school as some people would always be pulling his leg. Personally, after the first term I think I had had enough of messing him about and left him alone. Others though were always taking the p*ss. He wasn't physically abused at all but remarks were always being made. He did have a charming smile and this was probably his best feature. He was at the reunion, pot belly in very short shorts and a long beard. He told me he had run into Aggie Guy at a mental health counciling session one time. I didn't pursue this further last Saturday, the event was to happy to delve into that kind of thing. Any way, he does have one interest which is bell ringing and will go on for some time about this if you engage him in a conversation. I suppose he's happy enough in his own little world. It's only the outsiders that suffer for those who are "different", they themselves live within their tiny enclosure and shut off all the nasty things whereas we take them head on and consequently suffer the pain. I hope this explains a little further. (Mike Merry)
Who was the Very Bad Boy Indeed who ca '68 knocked over and
broke the arm of a local schoolgirl on the steps at Gidea
Park Station while running for the train (4.08 to
Tom Saunders........what a git he was. But at least he was honest in his bullying of me. Worse were the hangers-on who would join in, either out of fear of reprisals, or just to be seen as cool guys. Maybe later on, names will be named! (Tony Harrison)
there were two Walsh brothers, Colin and Roger, Colin being the elder, probably about David's age?, Roger was in my (57) intake and he then went into the Spanish stream teaming up with Russell Martin. I suppose they were not so much hard as just nasty, similar to Bard & Hobbs, already mentioned earlier this month. The Walsh's lived in one of the less salubrious areas of Harold Hill. I seem to remember that after he left RLS, Colin Walsh came visiting in a drape suit with all the trimmings and walked into our maths lesson with Ron Smith, shook his hand and walked straight out, leaving Ron slightly bemused. However this did mean that Ron needed to remove his hand from down the front of his trousers, where it always seemed to be for the whole 40 minutes of the lesson. (Derek Humphrey)
Ad "Roger Harlow saying that Hon Member Steve East (from my year) was also involved in a punch-up with Martin Binks." Nope, it wasn't me; at least, if it was, I don't remember it. I had a couple of fights with Brian Hallett, who actually seemed quite reasonable as long as he wasn't with Martin Binks. I only remember one fight with Binks. It was in the school bog and lasted about 10 seconds at which point the b*st*rd kicked me in the b*ll*cks. And no, I don't want this removed from the archives. Or anything else. (Steve East)
During the '50's there were some very tough boys at RLS but
not really what you could classify as "Nasty". You didn't have to be
a Ted or anything to be tough. Look at Ken Saxby. No one ever got smart with
him. McGregor and Delmonte had a reputation for being
tough but I never saw them in a fight at all. A couple of years ahead of me was
"Borstal" Bristow, (he always had a Borstal Boy crew cut) was a
Dagenham boy and I used to see him at
I am feeling more guilty by the day at having raised the subject of Brian Hallett and the bus incident. It's just one of those myths which I had heard many times and wondered if anyone could copper bottom it, as we say in the trade. Suffice it to say I won't ask anyone to offer any thoughts one way or another on the Tom Saunders / butcher's shop myth ... (Chris Stratford)
In the main I agree with Mike's memories of fights, and lack of, in the 50's. However there were a few spectacular set piece battles behind the bicycle sheds adjacent to High Trees and the Chemistry labs. I remember four or so ferocious tousles between Ken Saxby and Goofy Watson during the 4th/5th forms of original intake 1950. The extraordinary thing was that they were virtually set piece events. They were pre programmed to take place in the lunch breaks. There were even look outs to alert participants and spectators to the impending arrival of pr*f*cts and masters . I cannot recall why there was such antagonism between Goofy and Ken but for sure it existed with a vengeance. I seem to remember that they were eventually persuaded to slog it out in the gym with boxing gloves, seconds etc. Ken, it seemed to me, became a much more relaxed character in the sixth form. Goofy left in the 5th and, I gather, eventually became a pharmacist. I agree with Mike that there were no bullies. We were all threatened with initiation ceremonies, when we first arrived ,but I don't recall any serious nastiness. (Geoff Smith)
Bill and I and others were wandering down the path towards
the gates by the pavilion when we came across a young chap having the s**t
kicked out of him by some fellows who were older than him and older than us.
Deciding that discretion was better than valour and taking the typical British
view of not wanting to get involved we watched from the sidelines with a
cynical and indecent interest.
As we started to warm to the proceedings, along came a master (possibly Chips)
on his bike. The felons made a hasty exit, leaving their wretched victim in a
state of near collapse.
What happened, boy? said Chips. They were beating me
up; said the boy, sobbing uncontrollably.
Why?; said Chips. I don't know; said the boy.
What’s your name? said Chips.
The boy blinked at him, and fighting for breath, managed to stutter
Bartlett-Rawlings, Sir, and then, after a lengthy pause during which the world
appeared to stand still for us and almost come to an end for him, added the
immortal word, - hyphenated.
For once Chips was speechless. Gathering himself up in the saddle, he finally
managed to respond.
Well, you'd better go home, but make sure you don't do it again OK?
Yes, Sir, said Bartlett-Rawlings, now formally re-connected.
Now I don't know about you, but I think that this is a prime example of a
Grammar School education. In the face of overwhelming odds, adversity and a
third degree interrogation by a would-be Gestapo officer on a 1929 Raleigh
Roadster, punctuation was not forgotten. Unfortunately, since that day, I have
never been able to resist a smile when I am introduced to a personage of double
barrelled (should that have a hyphen?) proportions. (Derek Humphrey)
"Bill" Grosvenor (a pupil in the same years as me) may be known to a few: he distinguished himself by having (at that time) a seemingly ungovernable temper, which soon caught the imagination of those who seek entertainment by teasing others. Bill's response on one occasion was to hurl empty milk bottles at his tormentors. All were summoned to George's room and given six. (Peter Underwood)
Thank you for that delightfully recounted vignette of Mr Injustice Kipper Kendall. I am still working out the quickest way to find him! We always get our man. Why all these poisonous memories should surface in our mid fifties I do not know. I have looked through them and I found an almost pathological need to air grievances and occasional atonement. But they have to be exorcised. I feel I must now write an account of my two years at the RLS, a fair and balanced account. I have to say that I met some very good teachers and some rather poorer ones. The oddest thing was that even some of the best teachers committed offences against the person (not sexual, thank goodness) that would today land them before a Circus Judge and a fair old stretch of bird in consequence. By way of example I mention the following.
I just wonder whether, by way of mitigation for the soi-disant pedagogues, the unruly element among us - and to be fair, it was not insignificant - was too much of a challenge. These were more or less immediately post WWWII masters, probably mostly ex servicemen. The culture of the day was to bash to educate, and they were merely behaving in accordance with what they regarded as a reasonable and professional norm in taming young savages. And yet? (Keith Howell-Jones)
As a fellow '59er I remember the individuals in your
posting. Also Foxy, of the infamous "hair drill".
However, I can't remember
It is, however, your references to Grosvenor which have stirred me into posting. I was recently summoned to attend my son's school because he had committed, what the headmaster described, one of the most savage acts of bullying in the school in recent years. It turned out that he had administered a "wedgie" to a cheeky little sod from a lower year who, in my opinion, thoroughly deserved what he got. This made me think back to my own schooldays and poor old Grosvenor came to mind. I have to confess that I was as guilty as everyone else who engaged in Grosvenor baiting. The poor kid was taunted ceaselessly until he threw a fit. It was almost like a game, to see what one could get him to do when pushed to the limits. I can recall him breaking windows at one time.
As far as I can recall, Grosvenor's
parents were fairly well off and they always made good the damage. I don't
think he completed his education at RLS. I think that his parents took him out
of the school and sent him to
John: Your commentary respecting Grosvenor is well made and contrition appropriate. I too remember this poor bastard and the window-breaking incident and that among many others I witnessed. I was reminded then, and to this day, of a bear-baiting - it was cruel and absolutely without thought as to its implications. It also provided perverse pleasure to both perpetrators and also a segment of the audience for whom, in finality, it was performed. However, it was not a universal audience delight and many of us reflected from the sidelines on how boys could be so absolutely cruel to one another. The theorem of monkey see, monkey do with respect to the school masters is only a partial explanation. Surely, an atmosphere of generally repressive and callous behaviour contextualizes such actions as tolerable, but I think that it said something about us all, including idiots like me who watched and did not speak or act. Time can make us all wiser. (Malcolm Seddon)
"Bill" Grosvenor (a pupil in the same years as me) may be known to a few: he distinguished himself by having (at that time) a seemingly ungovernable temper, which soon caught the imagination of those who seek entertainment by teasing others. Bill's response on one occasion was to hurl empty milk bottles at his tormentors. The hurling happened on several occasions as I recall ... usually from the windows of the cloakroom - across the playground ... and the milk bottles were not always empty. (What a mess!) He ("Grosvenor", not "Peter") was a very strange person. I wonder how modern psychology might classify "a seemingly ungovernable temper"? (Andy Lee)
I too remember Grosvenor being a fellow 59er and some of his outbursts were very entertaining if not a sad reflection of the strong picking on the weak. My most vivid memory of him was in a woodwork lesson. Tiddles Tidyman had left to go to the main school for something or other and of course, half the class started buggering around. Collingstooth, a tall lad, decided to have a 'Jodrell' whilst sitting on the woodwork bench. Grosvenor saw this and went into one of his pompous preaching moments and commenced to tell Collingstooth how disgusting and how sick were his actions (not the style I might add). Collingstooth listened for a while and then when fed up with Grosvenor's rantings proceeded to put him in a cupboard under the tool bench on which 'C' was sitting. He remained there for the rest of the lesson (always a double period) and Tidyman never knew at all. Poor old Bill,I wonder if he has nightmares about RLS!! (John P Saxon)